Historic locomotive needs $80,000 boiler overhaul
By Steve Dreyer
The 100-year-old steam locomotive that has become an iconic symbol of the “City in the Country” is running on borrowed time, its operators say.
The 100-year-old Baldwin locomotive is running — for now. Poway Midland Railroad volunteers say its next boiler leak will be its last.
Officials from the city and the Poway Midland Railway are trying to figure out how best to finance the needed overhaul of the Baldwin engine’s 75-year-old boiler. It was last patched in January 2011 and, according to the expert who did the job, won’t last past its next leak.
“It’s like an old shirt, you just can’t patch it anymore,” said Chuck Cross, president of the all-volunteer railroad that operates the locomotive and several other vehicles at Old Poway Park.
A complete overhaul of the boiler will cost $80,000, Cross said. That guaranteed quote comes from an Orange County shop, only one of five in North America that still repair 200-gallon railroad boilers. Cross said the quote was the lowest among several he obtained.
Cross said a January 2013 time slot has been reserved at the Orange County shop for the boiler overhaul, which would likely take 6-8 weeks to complete.
“No. 3,” as the locomotive is known, was purchased in 1987 along with the balance of the estate of John S. Porter. After buying it in 1960 from a Vista man, Porter built a small station, house and shed on what is now part of Old Poway Park and operated what he called the “Poway Village and Rattlesnake Creek Railroad.” Porter died in 1980.
The engine is owned by the city but is operated by the volunteer railroad under a facilities use agreement, Cross said. Volunteers extensively restored the engine and its tender. No. 3 was put into service on July 4, 1997. It operates as a popular tourist attraction on the first and third weekends of the month. Operations are suspended each January and February for maintenance. The boiler is inspected every year by the state and poses no safety hazard, Cross stressed.
Since the engine is considered city property, payment for repairs falls under the city budget, Cross said. The proposed 2012-13 budget, to be considered June 19 by the City Council, does not have an allocation for the boiler work.
Cross said he and his board of directors are well aware that the recent demise of the local redevelopment program has placed a major strain on the city’s operating budget. The board, he said, is willing to discuss with the city the possibility of the Poway Midland Railroad contributing to the overhaul cost.
“Basically we have three options,” Cross said. “We can wait for the boiler to spring a leak then put (the engine) in the barn and dust it. We can go with the guaranteed price in Orange County, or we can wait for a leak, then try to find some place to fix it where we don’t have a reserved space. That could be a year or more and at greater cost, especially when you consider transportation costs.”
Cross briefed the City Council on the matter at last week’s meeting.
To Councilman Jim Cunningham’s way of thinking, the repair should be a priority. “Old No. 3 drives the Poway park,” he said Friday. “The notion of walking away is not an option.” He said he was very supportive of the idea of the railroad and the city somehow sharing the cost of the boiler overhaul.
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Posted by Steve Dreyer
on Jun 13 2012. Filed under Local News, Poway.
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Let's see how this shakes out for Cunningham and his capacity to spend money on "essential" Poway items. There was the winter festival at a cost of $30,000 of taxpayer money of which only a $8,000 was raised. Now he wants to spend $80,000 on restoration of the train that generates zero dollars. The train is a great thing in Poway. But it needs to be fully maintained by an all volunteer budget. It is simply not realistic to expend city dollars on this especially when the city is going to have to pull millions from several funds to pay off the state. Our water budget is going to be drained (pun intended) to an unhealthy level and may cause water rates to go up to bring it back up to a healthier level. Hate to be a scrooge – but this needs to be 100% private.
"generates zero dollars"?
You really don't have any idea what you're talking about. As an actual member of the railroad, I can tell you we actually generate quite a bit of money for the city.
The CIty acquired the property from the Porter estate with the full intention of running the railroad again, which was idle for several years. I was brought on board to research the locomotive, and stayed with the project for 5 1/2 years as park project coordinator. I formed the volunteer organization which has done an excellent job in maintaining the railroad, most of which is City-owned.
The locomotive is the centerpiece of the park, when we were designing it we used the date of 1907 since it was the year the locomotive was built. The locomotive is central to most of the events staged at the park. It was even used in filming one of my History Channel shows.
From the beginning is was never intended that all costs to keep the railroad running would be "private" funding, or even covered by the volunteers. We have done what we can, but with our low fares there is not enough to cover a major replacement such as this. The boiler was last replaced in the 1930's, so in 105 years it has only gone through two boilers. The next one could easily last another 75 years or so, especially with the care the volunteers show it.
The Campo Train Depot is fully funded with volunteer time and donations. I know because we spend a lot of time out there. It's a struggle but they manage to keep the train running. Perhaps our local group needs to look at how that facility is managed. Maybe it's time to increase the fares. But it is inappropriate and unrealistic for the city to spend $80,000 on train repair when we are facing cuts in every other segment of city services – that's the reality of it. I don't care what the city said it could do 20 years ago. Fiscal realities today are far different than anyone anticipated.
If the Community Church can raise money to rehab the little church then so can the train depot. Poway residents are incredibly generous when it comes to special projects. But this is not anything city funds should be used on – not in this economy. It's also interesting to note that this little "expense" was brought to the attention of the council after the budget review and approval. It's not ok to sneak in $80k into an overburdened budget.
Campo has been forced to sell off many pieces of historical railroad equipment to keep running. They sold the old locomotive from Knott’s Berry Farm, and they sold the historical Shay that used to run in the Sierra’s, one of the few running Shays left of the once large lumber industry in the State. These are just two that I am aware of. The Poway Midland Railroad only owns the trolley, and selling it would not solve the problem.
The City has known about this expense for a while. It was not brought after the review.
Okay, let me get this straight. The Railroad and Park is owned by the City and the Volunteers are to operate and maintain the equipment. The City sets the ticket price, not the Railroad. Now what if there were no volunteers and the City had to hire and train people to operate and maintain the equipment (It would have been a waste to make this railroad investment of the city into just a museum piece). Along with the boiler repair, the city would now have to pay additional salaries, all to provide a service to the public. The hiring of staff to operate and maintain the equipment would far exceed the cost of the boiler repair MANY times over.
Maybe not the right analogy, but the City has organized community volunteers as a Community Emergency Response Team (CERT). They provide assistance to the City, but it cost the city money to teach and clothe them. The City saves money by having these CERT volunteers as standby for emergencies than having to hire extra professionals (Fire and LE).
So once again, the city owns the train equipment and the volunteers are there to operate and maintain the equipment. The City also provides a lot of services that we could probably eliminate to save money, and have residents do them such a s cleaning our streets and parks and doing landscaping maintenance, but no, the City pays to have that work done.
I think the City is getting a great deal with only having to pay for part of the boiler repair.
ClarIece never has a positive comment or idea. Let's figure out where can get the money and fix it.
Kevin I post positive comments all the time they just aren't ever directed at anything you have an interest in. But this is an $80,000 expense. The CERT analogy is incorrect. First of all the train is a park amenities and CERT is an emergency response team for a crisis. How Sierra can link the importance of CERT to a new train boiler is a stretch.
Create a committee and begin fundraising to fix the boiler. It's not a particularly difficult concept to grasp. I enjoy the train and so does my family. My grandson is nuts about trains. But we aren't nuts to the tune of $80k out of taxpayer funds.
I agree Kevin. 99% of her comments are usually a bummer. I wish she would go rain on someone else's parade. Life's to short to live with such negativity.
Clariece does have positive comments. She sounds like a fiscal conservative who questions where the money is being spent, which is good. I'd like to see some of the benefits given to council taken away, such as health and retirement.
Clariece, good suggestion about a committee. May I suggest you start it? I think it would be unfair to expect the Railroad volunteers to do it since they spend so much of their free time already operating and maintain city equipment.
Thanks Sierra – at least someone got the point. I love the train – I'm probably one of the few in the area who love to hear the whistle on the weekends when it runs. I agree that the repair is necessary. I find it hard to believe that there isn't at least one corporate attorney available to set up the train as a 501c3. This will allow anyone who wishes to donate to make a tax deductible donation to repair and maintain the train. Those who make sizeable donations would be able to have a small bronze plate or other item fixed to a portion of the train to commemorate their donation. It doesn't seem like a negative idea to expect our city dollars in tough economic times to go where they are really needed. What is needed is for some to stop expecting the city to pay and/or subsidize everything under the sun. As to Kevin, he's got his knickers in a bunch because I criticized his best bud Cunningham for once again wanting to toss around cash on non-essential items. ($80k + $30k = $110k) and that's a lot of money in my book.
Clariece, I believe the Railroad volunteers are set up as a nonprofit, but to raise the money you’re talking about, much more is needed. As I suggested before, why don’t you start the process by forming a committee. Expecting the Railroad volunteers to do this, above their volunteer duties to maintain and operate the City owned equipment is really too much to ask for. Someone in the community, outside the railroad, like you, should start the process if this is what you think should be done.
Remember that the City owns the equipment and the volunteers operate and maintain the equipment for the enjoyment of the community.
So many words with so little to say. Jim is a friend. But that has nothing to do with my opinion. You're taking a cheap shot. Typical. Go ahead and start the committee and see if you can do something positive for the community.
Actually I think my fiscal point was quite clear, wordy but clear. You just don't want to hear it because you lose your perspective when it comes to Cunningham. Which is fine. I can think of a number of people in a far better position to run the committee. If I ran the committee I would have absolutely no time at all to comment on Chieftain articles or read comments by the same four people.
The Railroad in fact is a 501C3 Corporation , btw , the volunteers, spend a great deal of the ticket money as little as it is on Fuel , repairs and the list goes on .
Great job and a wonderful place to spend a day .
Well there you have it. No need for a committee. It's time for a fundraising campaign.
It's really ironic (a word I don't use lightly) that the train has "become an iconic symbol" of the city, when the failure of Poway to attract an actual railroad in the late 1800s shaped how Poway would develop over the the next century plus.
The June 19th council meeting will discuss the budget for the upcoming year. In the summary: "The General Fund is now projected to end the fiscal year with a small deficit of $28,000." The agenda will also have a review of items such as "Winterfest", the money losing but fun December event. Is there a spare $80K for a boiler? I don't know, but the Old Poway Park would not be the same w/o a train. Notice that the city is soliciting $15,000 for the annual fireworks show and about half has been donated so far, with lots of publicity to the companies that donated. How about soliticing more companies to pony up a little more for the boiler? In exchange they'd get their names plastered to the side of the train barn or the inside of the train ticket building. The names would be nothing obnoxious, but noticeable, and then lets's see what happens.
Thank you Mr. St. Lucas. Finally a meaningful and refreshing comment. I love the positive approach you present instead of the others same ole, same ole negative attitude. Keep up the good work.
Dale – Joe said exactly the same thing I did. So how is his comment positive and mine was negative?
Clariece – I don't read your comments anymore, so I wouldn't have known that. Your comments have always been negative in the past, so I just figured nothings changed. I like my glass half full.
Wow. Now that's funny. You call me out for being negative yet have no idea what I've actually said. That's awesome. You basically just chime in whenever someone criticizes a comment I've made regardless of the validity of my point. Congratulations on losing all credibility.
I'm not looking for your approval. Have you checked your own reputation score lately? Now that's funny!
This sounds like a problem for Amtrak.
I’m still waiting for Clariece to get the ball going and start the committee and any other assorted fundraiser. Just remember that the volunteers were created to operate and maintain the city train equipment. In other words, it’s the city and not the volunteers that own the equipment.
Sierra – I would be more than happy to spend any number of weekends with a chair and table sitting at the park and getting donations. Or we could have a dunk tank and for $100 bucks I'll sit on a ledge and people can chuck baseballs at me for fun. There is absolutely no need for a committee but there is a need for a positive ad campaign encouraging people to donate to fix the train. I think because the train does mean a lot to the people, we should be able to raise the money over the course of several months. Not to mention that the volunteers themselves can pitch it to visitors. Utilizing the local media as an additional source of free advertising is another possibility. The train is a 501c3 and donations are tax deductible. The structure is already in place for fund raising it just needs to be utilized.
We could get the council members (and council members running for office) there also, or maybe a pie throwing fundraiser.
The Arbolitos lights cost $884,000 including landscaping. How does this compare to the $80,000 needed for the train? Is the community value for the train proportional to the value of the lights, and if so, why is the City Council not more aggressive in resolving the issue?
I think that is a valid question as far as value to the city. No can deny the train and the park are beneficial. However, with the field lights, if I remember correctly, there was a substantial contribution to the lights by the soccer league – not to mention strong, vocal support for the lights. If it weren't for the foresight of city council in setting money aside for a rainy day our city would be half a million in the hole this year. As much as we all love special projects, we have to be responsible with what funds we do have. If we put both the festival and the train into the budget that's an additional $110,000 dollars. I think it's realistic to find out first how much of each project can be privately funded before tapping the city for cash.
The soccer league did contribute $100K to the project, which was very generous.
That left $784K to be paid by the citizens and I don't know if an effort was first made to "find out first how much of of each project can be privately funded before tapping the city for cash".
In any case I believe the money for both projects would/is money well spent. I hope some good arguments for the train will be made at the Council meeting in August.
BTW, the boiler issue is supposed to be on the City Council agenda at the first meeting in August. (I think the 7th).
Clariece, I'd like to update you with some important facts about the Railroad and its operation. But first, we should address the philosophical question that Clariece brings up:
"How much money should the City of Poway spend on its network of parks?".
I don't know the answer to how much they actually do spend, but I can share the following information:
1. In 2011, over 60,000 guests rode on the Steam Engine, Trollley, and Speeder. Probably 2/3 of these rides were on the steam engine.
2. The income from these rides is NOT zero as Clariece assumes. Adults pay $1.50 to $2.50 and children pay less, but income from rides is over $100,000 annually, I would estimate. Add to that profit from sales of toys and merchandise sold from the Ticket Office in the depot, and you see that income is quite robust. Frank Lorrey knows these figures better and indicates that income does not cover costs, and yes, the City of Poway would cover the deficit.
3. Except for the teenagers and others who are paid for running the Ticket Office to sell tickets and toys and merchandise, NONE of the drivers, engineers, conductors, mechanics, or other volunteers take a dime of Poway City money. We are all volunteers and we love what we do.
4. The city spent over $500,000 to build the new Train Depot a few years back. If you do not have the Steam Locomotive operating, ridership will diminish and the income vs. expenses deficit will widen. In that sense, investing in a repair will pay for itself in only a few years.
5. Now, add to that equation the number of local and non-local visitors drawn to Old Poway Park because we have the only working in-park steam locomotive south of Knotts and Disneyland or west of Camp. They spend money in Old Poway, at the Hamburger Factory, Wal-Mart, Henry's and so on because they are visiting this wonderful park. How much spending is done that would start to wither away without the Crown Jewel attraction in the City's biggest park? How much tax revenue does the city collect because the Baldwin Steam Locomotive is such a huge attraction.
So, one can make an economic argument FOR the repair of the boiler. The volunteers could not raise $80.000 and they shouldn't have to. The city enjoys many economic benefits.
And, let's do talk a bit about Quality of Life. Poway is one of the nicest, most liveable cities in the county in part because of such a great Parks System. Lost that and your community is diminshed.
So please, Clariece, think your issues through a bit more before you fire off your diatribes.
She always fires first, then apologizes later when she realizes she could be wrong.
Thank you Vacuumking,
Obviously you did your homework unlike others. A+ . The City of Poway has the finest Parks in the entire county. Others travel far and wide to use them, and indeed a welcome Tax revenue for our city. Hard to understand how some are so blind to this blessing.
Vaccuumking – thank you for information. When spending $80k on a repair it helps to have a complete picture. (Not just a simple "give me $80k") I still stand by my comments that the 501c3 component of the train should be better/more fully utilized. In the last few days I spoke with a lovely gentleman who rides my bus (he's Uncle Sam in another article) and he made one comment that changed my mind completely. He said two words — "boiler explosion."
So let's get the boiler repaired and figure out a way to increase donations to maintain the train going forward. I am not so hardlined in my opinions that when presented with additional well reasoned facts, can't be persuaded to budge an inch.
Now the question becomes, if there's a possibility of a boiler explosion, should the train be shut down NOW? Does the guy think that it's ok for now, but might not last a year before a slow leak or massive eruption occurs? I don't know what liablity issues, if any, this would pose if there's some inkling that an explosion could occur.
I made the remark earlier and I'll make it again-Clariece, why don't you organize the fund raising. Start the committee.
Probably cause she's all bark and no bite.